Practical Parenting Advice for

Raising Teens

Empowering Parents ♡ Uplifting Teens ♡ Transforming Families

Guidance

Center

Searchable database of guides, tips, and solutions.

Episode 265: ADHD & Homework: Your Teen Isn’t Stubborn—They’re Stuck

academics podcast

If homework has turned into an exhausting nightly standoff, this episode is for you. Dr. Cam and neurodivergent therapist Holly Blanc Moses reveal why ADHD teens aren’t “stubborn” or “unmotivated”—they’re stuck due to executive functioning challenges like task initiation, time blindness, working memory, and overwhelm.

You’ll learn how shame and the expectation–capacity gap make starting feel impossible, and you’ll get brain-based, neurodiversity-affirming tools to move from standoff to small wins: time timers, body doubling, task analysis, and collaborative problem-solving.

Walk away with practical scripts and strategies that protect your relationship while helping your teen start—and finish—homework with more confidence and less conflict.

LISTEN NOW ON...

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

Why “stubborn” and "lazy" are the wrong story
5 neuroscience-backed strategies that end homework battles
The 2-minute trick that finally got my ADHD teen to clean their room
How to tell if you’re accidentally hurting your teen’s mental health (even good parents do this)

🎧❤️ ENJOYING THE SHOW?

If this helped, share it with a friend and leave a rating/review so more parents can find it. Don’t miss an episode—subscribe!

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Holly Blanc Moses

Website: hollyblancmoses.com/connect
Practice (Raleigh, NC): crossvinecounseling.com
Facebook: @hollyblancmoses
Instagram: @hollyblancmoses
LinkedIn: @holly-blanc-moses-378a78104
YouTube: @autismadhdtvwithholly
FB Group for Parents: WiredDifferentlyGroup

CONNECT WITH YOUR HOST: Dr. Cam Caswell

EPISODE CHAPTERS

00:00 Why Homework Feels Impossible: Executive Functioning 101
12:29 The Expectation–Capacity Gap (and how to close it)
24:37 Motivation vs. Task Analysis: Mapping the first step
36:05 From Shame to Support: Language that lowers defenses
37:01 Co-Regulation and Trust: Teaching when your teen is stressed
41:42 Tools That Work: Time timers, body doubling, and collaboration

ABOUT THE SHOW

The Parenting Teens with Dr. Cam Podcast is your go-to resource for navigating the challenges of raising teenagers. Hosted by Dr. Cam Caswell, an adolescent psychologist and certified parenting coach, this podcast offers practical parenting strategies, expert advice, and real-world insights to help you build a stronger relationship with your teen and support their emotional growth. Whether you’re struggling with teenage behavior or looking to improve communication, each episode provides actionable tips to make parenting teens easier and more rewarding. Perfect for both new and seasoned parents, this podcast helps you build the confidence to handle teen challenges and thrive together.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Cam (01:01.459)

We have a lot of executive functioning skills struggles during the adolescence. And I think there's a big gap in between what we think our kids can do and what they're still learning to do, which causes a lot of frustration. So before we even dig into that, which I know people are eager to hear, tell us a little bit more about how you got started in this field.

Holly (01:22.626)

Well, that's an excellent question and that could be another episode. But ever since I was, I don't know, kindergarten, I've been super interested in human behavior. I would do like little experiments to see what would happen. I know it's so weird, like being that young and be like, why does that work for that person? And why do people like that person more? And how does that other person get their homework done? I mean, it's just, are these superpowers?

You know, what's the difference? So really from day one, it seems like.

Dr. Cam (01:56.608)

Wow. So you're observing people and what were some of the bigger questions that came to mind at even at that age? Like, what were you going? Why can that person do that? And maybe I can't or most people can't. What were some of the big ones?

Holly (02:11.178)

Right. I think I was also interested in why I struggled so much compared to other people because we do, start young comparing ourselves, right? It's comparisonitis and I still struggle with that virus. We want to call it that. Don't we all?

Dr. Cam (02:26.291)

Yes, don't we all? Yeah, it's a hard one to inoculate ourselves from.

Holly (02:31.47)

especially ADHD people, autistic people. mean, it's just everything looks so different for other people. And so then, why am I not doing this? Why can't I organize this? Why does my desk, if I was to change the camera angle, look like it exploded? Right now, next to me on the floor, a year ago, I went to the container store and I bought all these beautiful containers. Now they're also in the pile on the floor. So the pile is actually bigger now. So it wasn't about motivation. It was about all the rest that it takes to make that happen.

Dr. Cam (03:13.051)

I love that you're saying that because I want parents right now to kind of embrace that mindset because we have a lot of shoulds on our kids. We guys, we say we should on them a lot. Yeah, on ourselves a lot. We do a lot of comparison between ourselves, our families and our kids with other kids. And so we do have a lot of expectations that we put on them. And we think why aren't they doing this?

Holly (03:25.612)

on ourselves too.

Dr. Cam (03:42.56)

but rather than really digging into why, big question mark, why aren't they doing that? We go, why aren't they doing that? Give me your phone, you should be able to do that. And more more video games, because that's when we stop and go, wait, why? Big question mark, what is missing? What are they still learning to do? What is the underlying question? It changes parenting.

Holly (03:54.764)

No more video games.

Dr. Cam (04:11.573)

100 % how we approach it, everything.

Holly (04:16.257)

yeah. yeah.

Dr. Cam (04:17.621)

So what are some of the questions, first of all, that us parents should be asking a little bit more and then we're going to dig a little bit into the answers that they could be and what to do because we're so much more effective when we actually know what's going on.

Holly (04:34.638)

We are, we are. And what's lovely about your beautiful podcast, like we've got lived experience here, my friend. Like we're not just talking about it. This is like the day in and day out.

Holly (04:51.02)

Why are we, I think that curiosity brought up earlier, like what's underneath, why are we so mad? Why are we so mad at them? You know, we love these, we would die for these humans, right? It's like, why are we so angry and why are we yelling at them? you know, it's, we need to kind of start there because if we're still yelling at them and expecting them to change, but we're not doing any of the changing.

Dr. Cam (04:59.657)

Good question.

Holly (05:18.924)

That's not really gonna help. And plus when you're mad, you're not really gonna be in a space, you know, to even hear anything just like them. You're just shutting down, yelling, whatever. And I think there's a lot of things behind it, Cam, and it depends on the person. There's shame even for the parent. Like what's wrong with me that I can't get my kid to do this, right? Like what am I doing wrong? Because then you see all these parents doing what? Something.

air quote, right? I don't know. That just means you're doing it wrong. and then I'm tired of the teacher emailing me about you not getting this done. I'm tired of your room looking like this. It's embarrassing. We can't have anyone over, you know, all these things that may even be in your own childhood, I think show up in those moments of stress.

Dr. Cam (06:10.407)

Yeah, I hear a lot of, I didn't do this as a kid, which by the way, yes you did. we have very good selective memory or my parents would, this is a bigger one. My parents would have never let me get away with that. And I think that is one of the underlines. Huh? All the time. Yeah. Yeah. How do, what do we say to that?

Holly (06:26.766)

Roll the...all the time. People think that,

Holly (06:35.98)

Maybe they should have.

So thinking about it, like what did you need? What did you need? What would your relationship look like if your parents would have listened to you or understood you better?

Dr. Cam (06:53.709)

Yeah. It is because you often go, well, my parents didn't do it that way or this is what they did. And I said, and how did you feel about your parents? Did you trust them? Did you respect them? Well, I respected them because I obeyed them, but did you respect them or did you fear them? How do you feel? Right.

Holly (07:13.054)

compliance out of fear and that's not a good compliance, right? Like that's not what we want. We don't trust people who are screaming at us. Like imagine going into work and having your boss lay in you screaming at you. It's so dysregulating. But really before that, because I'm not parent blaming here because hey, I've yelled. I will tell you that. No one is perfect. No kid, no adult.

But I think when we turn it and look at it in the other direction, like what did you need? What do you wish they would have done differently? It's kind of a different conversation from the start.

Dr. Cam (07:52.682)

I think that is a hundred percent different. We are comparing what it looked like on the outside and we're not thinking and remembering what it felt like on the inside and how that really changes the way we perceive. And then we look at our behaviors now and the way we feel about ourselves now and things like people pleasing and shame and comparing and all of those things. Cause we all go, well, we turned out okay. Well, we're carrying a lot of crap.

Holly (08:22.178)

Did we?

Dr. Cam (08:22.459)

a lot of crap. And again, you're right. This is never about parent blaming because every single parent I've ever talked to and we've both between the both of us, thousands of them, they are doing their very best from a very good place of love and wanting the best for their kids and wanting the best. So this is never about, you shouldn't. This is about we are doing what we know how to do. And we're guessing because that's all we got.

Holly (08:32.21)

yeah, easy.

Dr. Cam (08:50.605)

And our guessing is coming from a place of fear and assumptions and things that make us guess wrong.

Holly (08:59.022)

When we're in times of high stress, which is exactly what we're talking about, we often default back to what we didn't even want. And again, like you said beautifully, this isn't about parent blaming here. And this is about getting real and raw so you have a better relationship with your child and honestly, a better relationship with yourself.

Dr. Cam (09:22.197)

Yeah, yeah. mean, when we let go of some of the things that we are trying to control for, which are, by the way, not even remotely, not only can we not control them, we should not be controlling them because we're trying to control another human being. And just because they're our kids doesn't mean we have the right to control who our kids are. It never works. I mean, and I always say your kids are going to turn out to be who they're supposed to be.

Holly (09:44.654)

And I tried, it doesn't work.

Dr. Cam (09:52.554)

But you have the choice on whether you want to be part of that story and a good positive part of that story or a negative part of that story and be kicked out of that story later on. That's the only thing we're changing in our relationship with our kids right now when they're teens is what part of the story are we playing in who they become, not who they become.

Holly (10:12.994)

Yeah, and I love that we talked about the, the parent side of it, because I think usually the spotlight is on the child, right? Like the parent feels all this pressure. They're not doing this at school. They're, they're looking up on the computer, seeing that their child has not handed in this. Well, you did it, but you didn't hand it in. Or I told you to clean your room. I walk in, it's not clean. You know, so all this is sort of spotlight, you know, on that child.

And it is hard and it is frustrating and that's why we get dysregulated ourselves as parents. But when we step back, like for instance, right here, this is, I don't know if I've ever told you this, Cam, but right next to my desk, next to everything else, I'm surprised I didn't lose it in the pile or something, there is a little kindergarten picture of me.

Dr. Cam (11:04.405)

Awwww so cute! I have the same pose!

Holly (11:08.108)

You probably do. You probably have the same background. We all have the background.

Dr. Cam (11:10.773)

I do have the same better. I think the same outfit even. was like, wait, how did you get my picture?

Holly (11:19.064)

Same background, right? Like all the neon and what it, yeah, it got neon after this. But then next to it is take gentle care of her. And this is a picture of me when I was little. I feel kind of teary right now because that's what I needed. And we want our kids to feel safe with us so they don't have to have a kindergarten picture with a post-it note next to them.

Dr. Cam (11:20.537)

Yeah, I was like, wait a second. When did you get my school picture?

Holly (11:47.276)

And there psychologists trying to help other people get through this. So just thinking of, know, what is the relationship I want with them? What was the relationship I wanted with my parents? What did I need? And then forgiving yourself. I'm not this isn't beat yourself up time. This is I'm tuning into Cam's podcast to listen to Cam and Holly because I want to do things different. I want to have that relationship.

with my kid as an adult, not just, hey, let's pretend we're fine and we can stand each other for Christmas and then leave.

Dr. Cam (12:23.027)

I think and I know people are going, okay, you guys promised to talk about executive functioning and I'm struggling with my child's procrastination and they're getting their homework done. What does this have to do with that? What we're setting up.

Holly (12:38.676)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so anytime, and I believe you even said this, I'm like, dang girl, like towards the beginning, is when there is a difference. And I always think about this. Here's an expectation. Those of you who are listening and not watching, I've got one hand up. Here's the expectation, the parents or the teachers or whoever's, right? And then you have what you're getting. And the bigger the gap, between the expectation of what the child does, the action, the more distress typically everyone has, right? So if it lines up, if the expectation and the action of the child lines up, then hey, we're at 100%. Yay, that's fantastic. But with executive functioning differences, and it is a difference, it's cognitive, everyone, we can measure it.

It's measurable. do it in my office. You can see the why. Like you said, underneath. What is the reason? Because if we don't know the why, we don't know the reason for the space, we will blame the child. Right? We will blame them.

Dr. Cam (13:47.786)

Correct. And we usually blame it on things like defiance, disrespect. It's all like negative intent that we blame them on. And that's more because it's how we feel when that is there. We're like, if you're not complying with what my expectation is, I feel like you're defying me or disrespectful and worried and nervous. And so we put that character flaw on our kid and we miss

The actual reason the gap is there, which means we don't address the gap, we address our feeling and we try to. Yeah.

Holly (14:21.464)

And you just keep doing the same thing. And you'll hear that from parents all the time. And I know you have, Cam, is nothing changes. I keep telling him over and over and over again, and it's not changing. And so that's just good information. So now that we know that it has not changed for our old approach, that's when we take a step back and think about it. So when you think about problem solving, which is an executive function, by the way,

Dr. Cam (14:50.205)

Mm-hmm, very complex one.

Holly (14:51.576)

So, yeah, so thinking about it, like using your executive functioning, because we're saying that it's so important. So, hey parents, let's use our own executive functioning. So if a child is not meeting up with that expectation consistently, there is that gap. Let's think about what that reason might be, because I would say if that child could do, what you're asking, if they could meet that expectation, they would because no one wants to be screamed at.

Dr. Cam (15:26.799)

No, no one wants to disappoint their parents. No one wants to get their phone taken away. No one wants any of that. That's not fun for them either.

Holly (15:35.256)

Well, it's awful and it's awful for everyone.

Dr. Cam (15:37.674)

Yeah. And I think that's why we always go, well, maybe our consequences isn't big enough because we want to do it something that's so it, mean, literally what we're doing is I want to make them hurt enough that they're going to be motivated to do something that's not motivation, by the way, motivation is intrinsic. It's internal, external motivation is control. So it's more manipulation is what we're doing. And we got it. We got to name it for what it actually is. And I,

Holly (16:06.414)

And I think the point too that you were saying is where did that come from? Because I love you mom, if you're listening to this episode. But my mom told me the other day, well, you should just be, you should just make them. You should be harder on them. Like, why didn't I think of that? Right? She's like, well, I'm glad I told you. I'm like, no, I'm being sarcastic. What?

How easy would that be? So anyway, it's that pressure that we put on ourselves, right? It's just like, do it, do it, do it. And we assume, and that's when assumptions come in, because assumptions come in where there's not the knowledge there to back it up. And that's what we're talking about. We need to find out why. And you were talking about motivation. And I think this is where lots of things break down, this idea of what it actually is. So can we look at that really quick? Okay, because I think you'll hear and can't if they're not they're just not motivated. Like somehow motivation is a like light switch or some

Dr. Cam (17:13.108)

Right, they're lazy. You either have it or you don't. You either are motivated or you're not motivated.

Holly (17:23.168)

Yeah, exactly. It's black or white, which that's not it. That's not it. All right. So because I have executive functioning differences, I made some notes. All right. So here is the motivation. Like, what is that? So is what is the task here? Because I am capable of making my bed. But I don't do it.

Right? So am I lazy? I don't know. guess some people think that. Or do I have so much more stuff to do that I can't possibly put one more thing on my plate? And I know a lot of parents feel that way too. So perceiving the task. So is it interesting?

Is it rewarding? Is it doable for the variables that you're experiencing right now? And that could be, are you tired? Are you hungry? Were you bullied at school today? Did the teacher yell at you and shame you in front of the other classmates? You know, I mean, there's so many things that you don't know that are going on with your kid.

that they either feel like they can't tell you because they're gonna, you're gonna say it's an excuse, cause that's what you've done before as parents, right? Or they're gonna say, it shouldn't matter. You should be able to do it anyway. So here is the task. What is the task you're asking and take the motivation word out of there because we mess it up. So what is the task? If you have a teen who's ADHD teen, for example, depending on their

Dr. Cam (18:43.487)

We do.

Holly (19:07.774)

level of severity that matters too is is it interesting or not and often we'll say it doesn't matter if it's interesting well if it's not interesting your kid is pulled in another direction every five seconds and i will tell you as an adult that is absolutely true for me because i have severe ADHD and i have kids that do too and it's like bam bam gone gone gone it's not you know it's not about caring

You know, you should care. You're supposed to care. You don't care. It's not about care. It's about dopamine executive function. It's not about character. It's about skill.

Dr. Cam (19:43.45)

It is. It is. think what's It is about skill. I think what's really hard too, and I mean, I want to get your thoughts on this, because I kind of have this theory based on what I'm seeing is every single parent that comes to me within their description of what's going on are the letters ADHD. Every single parent has diagnosed their child in some way or another with attention deficit disorder. And my philosophy right now is, based on how our kids are growing up, which they do have limited attention, but I feel like it's a more, I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I'm thinking that our understanding of how long we should be able to attend to something and our tolerance for boredom, what we think our kids' tolerance for doing boring things is, is not equivalent to what they are able to do, because we have raised them in a world, and I see babies with iPads and they're watching, you know, Miss Rachel, and I can sing to you every single Miss Rachel song at this point, because I've been an 11 month old niece. But they are born wired for constant stimulation. And so now what we used and we're losing the ability to, but boredom is a skill. Being able to be bored is a skill that our kids have not learned.

Holly (21:11.948)

Yeah, and you'll see, obviously, Cam, you're speaking to that. That's why you hear that a lot. That's boring. I'm bored. That also, though, will spark some upset with the parent, because I don't know about you, but I actually said this before, and it's kind of ironic that I that. I was like, I wish I could be bored. I wish I had that luxury.

Dr. Cam (21:33.337)

Yeah. That is one of the, that's a, that's a parentism.

Holly (21:40.138)

It's such a parentism. So, but it's not the same. And again, even under board, a lot of times our kids don't have the vocabulary to explain what is going on. And what you're going to see is a big difference. Like if you were to put a kid with ADHD, for example, and a kid without ADHD, their board is not the same either. Like it's really not. So,

It might look like ADHD or it's not, but I definitely, as a psychologist who provides those evaluations, it's important to figure that out because they're more likely to have learning differences, working memory, processing speed. We can see those executive functions in our testing and they need accommodations and understanding, of course.

Dr. Cam (22:28.277)

And it's not a brokenness in our kids too. I feel like a lot of parents and kids even, I know a lot of kids who do not want the label because it makes them feel broken rather than saying this is more of an understanding of what helps you learn better. And I think we need to distinguish that too. This is not saying you're a broken kid that needs fixing. It's a, this is how your brain works.

Holly (22:31.03)

No, no, no, no.

Dr. Cam (22:58.345)

Let's find a way to help you learn in a more of a company in a way that works with your brain better.

Holly (23:06.156)

And I love that you said that because you just, you just bypassed yelling. You see what I mean? What you just said, I know you already know this, But I'm just going to break it down for a second. You just said, I'm here with you. I'm regulated. I'm a safe person. We can work together to figure out what works for you. And you just...

took that shame out. And I think all of us listening, I'm 50 now, so I've got a lot of kind of life behind me, is that there's a lot of shame that we carry around. You should be able to. What's wrong with you? Especially people or kids with executive functioning differences, you may be nodding right now that you're listening or watching this. Like it is painful and it doesn't stop in childhood, you carry that with you. So you are helping your child's future mental health when you approach with a collaborative way about you, right? Like when you're regulated and you can help them, then that opens up the door for them to get to know themselves. Maybe they're not broken, they're not bad, they're not lazy. Like the word lazy can, I don't know if I've ever told you this, it makes me physically sick.

Dr. Cam (24:35.409)

I would like to put that as a swear word personally. think that's one of the worst four-letter words that you can tell a kid because it just completely undermines everything about them.

Holly (24:40.526)

It is, yeah, sorry. I'm like, it, just the, just hearing that word is so painful because I grew up hearing it every single day. And I don't want that for my kids. I don't want that for them because they turn it in on themselves. They're bad, they're broken. They should be like their cousin.

and it's not okay and is you're breaking their mental health. But listening to this, I'm gonna get it together. I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

Dr. Cam (25:23.893)

I love that you're that raw about it because I think it's really important for us. We forget a lot as adults, the pain that some of this stuff really caused. We kind of have blocked that out, I think. And so when you're able to tap into that as an adult, as you're doing, and I'm glad that you're doing that for everyone to show like how real that pain sticks with us. It's...

Holly (25:48.288)

It really does. And you say it to yourself, it becomes your own internal story. know, I should be able to, what's wrong with me? I need to work harder. I'm not trying hard enough. When I was already trying beyond my max. And you don't want this to be your child's story. You don't want this. But it's also never too late. Like if you found yourself saying, don't be lazy,

You know, you're not, if you don't learn to do this now, you're never gonna be able to live on your own. All those things, I want you to forgive yourself. I want you to apologize to your kid. And believe me, me knowing all this, Cam, does not make me perfect. I've had to apologize for ridiculous things that flew out of my mouth when I was dysregulated.

Dr. Cam (26:34.163)

I mean, I'm not the most emotionally regulated all the time. Let's be real on that one.

Holly (26:38.444)

No, I don't know who is, but the more we learn and the more we figure out what we need as a parent, like we're talking about what does our child need? What do we need to be able to show up for them? What does that look like? You know, do I need to dive into Holly and Cam's, know, podcasts a couple times a week? Do I need to dive into some, you know, audio books? Do I need to?

get into a group and meet up with some people who are also on this parenting journey. Like there's so many things that you need to figure out how you can show up because you learning that is gonna change everything for you in your kid's relationship.

Dr. Cam (27:22.441)

I want to point out the word that you just used, which I think is a super essential is learning because our shame as parents often comes from a place of thinking we should know how to do this. Whoever told us that we should know how to do this? This is hard and we're dealing with so much external pressure and yet it's the one thing that probably makes the most difference in the world because we are actually helping to raise the next generation and we don't learn how to do it? Like I wouldn't go to a hairstylist that has just wing in it because they had their hair. I had my hair cut as a kid so I know how to do it. What? We have to learn how to do this. This is a skill as a parent. That's everything about this and there's no shame in learning and there's no shame in not knowing how to do something.

Holly (28:02.07)

I've done that. Don't do it.

Dr. Cam (28:20.339)

before you've learned it.

Holly (28:22.4)

It's so true. It's so true. Well said. And so when, when we kind of step back for that motivation, so it's the, what is the task? How many steps are there? What's your current capacity? Because you know, kids are already drained, believe it or not. A lot of times they're online because they are drained. can't, they've been white knuckling it all day at school or whatever. So that that's their like chill out. can't even think straight.

kind of time. Then, so the task and then the executive functioning it takes to do it. I mean, the planning, the organizing, initiating the task, all those are executive functions, all of them. So take out the word motivation because it's just kind of one of those words like disrespect. We use it in the wrong ways and then we're mad at our kids, right?

So then you have to also regulate the attention. So the task, is it boring? How long is it gonna take? Some tasks are one step, some tasks are 30. I mean, when you think about it, cause I'm all about a task analysis. I'm, I got nerd on that all day. If you broke down what you ask your kid to do, what you go, I'm only asking you one thing. You can't do one thing, right? I want you to take that thing.

and break it down. I tooth brushing is like more than 20 steps. I mean, there's, you know what I mean?

Dr. Cam (29:53.27)

Right? I mean, as an adult, we've automated and I think that's the big difference too. And we have to realize that some of the stuff we're asking our kids to do, I mean, it's like driving. When you first started to drive, there were so many things to do. You had to like remember to look and you had to remember to look in the back and Justin blah, So long that your brain was just like going crazy. Now we don't even think about it because we've automated it. Our kids, we're asking kids to do things, complex tasks.

that we've automated. So we cannot assume it's already automated in them. It takes them years of doing it over and over again to automate it.

Holly (30:32.814)

Exactly. so how so then there's that word motivation. So it's going to keep coming back up with us because we're humans where if they were if they were if they were just because we've rolled in it for so long and maybe we did as kids too, that our parents said that we needed to be more motivated. So again, the task, where are they in their state? Because think about this. If somebody asked me at 12 a.m. this morning, which, yes, I was up as ridiculous doing work stuff.

to then also clean my room, that's not gonna happen. That doesn't make me lazy. So really thinking about it in a different way, the task, the executive functioning it takes to do it, right? Stay regulated and not get pulled when your brain is literally hijacking itself every couple seconds. And I wish I was exaggerating, especially if it's boring.

Like you'll be off doing something else, right? And then, and then what's my progress in this for this task? Am I halfway through it? Am I even still on the first one part of the task? So there's all these things. And when you step back and look at it as more like a scientist, like I said, with curiosity, it's not about shaming and blaming and being angry and beating your kid down and you feeling beat down.

We're just stepping back and we're kind of looking at all of it. And what comes up for me is no wonder. Instead of blame and shame, it's no wonder they don't want to do this. They don't even know how to start it. They don't even, it's going to take forever because a lot of times they have time blindness executive function, by the way, for everyone didn't know that.

Dr. Cam (32:19.123)

Yep. Yep. Big one. Yeah.

Holly (32:22.892)

It's either never, forever, or always. Now imagine in your life in that moment, if somebody told me that I had to clean my room, I would look at it, get overwhelmed, shut down, and think, I will die before this is complete. I'm not saying it's logical, but that's the experience. And so that's what you're seeing. And you're frozen. Like, how do you even begin that?

Or you do begin it and then you fall apart because it's like, I see this, it feels impossible to me, right? So stepping back and thinking, number one, am I regulated enough to even have this conversation with my child?

Dr. Cam (33:06.431)

And if you not, wait, because the conversation is not going to go well. You've already set the tone of the conversation and you've set the path. It's going to go down a bad path.

Holly (33:09.678)

because not worth

Unless it is an absolute emergency and you to like evacuate or something, right? But others.

What do you need to do to take care of yourself? Remind yourself that that's what you need to do. I want a good relationship with my kid. I want them to trust me. I want them to feel safe with me. I want them to know that they can come to me. Because not a lot of kids don't feel that way about their parents.

Dr. Cam (33:40.138)

gosh, no, they don't. And they want to be able to, that's the big thing. I think a lot of parents go, my kid doesn't want to come to me or my kid doesn't. And when that's happening, that to me is not a sign of something's wrong with your kid. It's a sign that something's not up with wrong with your relationship. And that's something you do have control over fixing. And so I think that that's really a good sign for you to go, okay, something needs to change. And that change has to start with me.

Holly (34:09.972)

And I want to put something on top of that too, is I don't know if this comes up for you guys a lot, but I'll hear a lot of like, well, they're just lied. They told me they did it and they didn't.

Dr. Cam (34:20.415)

Correct. Yep, I hear that a lot too.

Holly (34:24.15)

Right, and so I think of that as different. Like put motivation, the word over here, because it's loaded. We have too much history and we got it wrong. I want us to also do that with lying, which is not easy because that like hits us at a value, right? So usually kids either think they did actually do it. They're not really lying. Like they really think they did because so many times they do stuff and don't remember.

Dr. Cam (34:52.955)

or they do it to their standard and they don't do it to our standard and then we will discredit everything they've done. I've done this with cleaning room. Like you don't, that's not cleaning your room. I'm like, they just picked up a bunch of socks. That's not cleaning. To them it was. So if we...

Holly (35:08.814)

Well, and then that speaks to, I'm glad you said it because that expectation I put up with my hand, right? Here's the expectation. It's a moving target. Like how do you even meet it? They're really quick. gotta tell you this. I remember being so proud of myself. I think I was in, I don't know if I was like third or fourth grade, something like that. And my room was always a mess. It still is.

and I'm 50 and I do not care and no one's gonna yell at me about it, okay? I don't even have dressers and this is why I don't have dressers in my room because they were always messy, had stuff all over them, you know, everything and I was so proud of myself. It took me so long. I was so drained from figuring out how to clean off my dresser when I was younger.

and I took so much time and I made sure everything was dusted and I moved things and I just kept looking at it. I was so proud of myself. So proud of myself. I ran to go get my dad to show him. I'm like, please come up, please come up and see what I did. I'm so excited to see what I did, see what I did. I did my dresser and he saw it. And he, was something like, yeah, that's okay, but what about the rest of this room?

And I just felt like my soul was crushed. And I'm not talking behind his back. told him this, you know. So it's, we gotta be careful that we are seeing that progress being very clear with our expectations, but also noticing is this expectation outside of their ability right now in this moment? And how can I show up?

to support them because I think a lot of times, know, when I think of like two mountain sides with this giant space in between, a lot of times we don't even realize it. We're asking our kids to jump a thousand feet to the other side with no scaffolding, like nothing there. And then we're mad at them when they fall.

Dr. Cam (37:22.719)

when they don't. Or they don't try because they're too scared to try.

Holly (37:25.805)

Well, why would you? You're going to screw it up anyway. Every effort you make is that it's not good enough, right? And so you can see how that shame and depression and anxiety build. So really quick, some quick tips, because I know those are important. We want you guys to run and start implementing things.

Dr. Cam (37:30.653)

I know you're going to get yelled at.

Holly (37:51.148)

When you think of a task, again, assuming you're regulated, take those deep breaths as you need to, take a step back, because it's worth it. Your relationship with your child, your child's mental health is worth it. Take this from psychologists, It's worth it. Okay, so then think about the tasks that they seem to be more successful with. What are they? Right?

Maybe it is putting their dishes in the sink. That's okay. Is it they're more skilled at doing that or they have more success when you're both in the room and the dishes are right there and you just ate? Like peel apart and get curious about the parts of tasks. Cause again, there are so many steps, so many steps and so many things that we ask our kids to do.

Dr. Cam (38:49.749)

Can I just add to that one thing, Holly? Because I want to make sure people are also looking at the tasks that they may not value, that your kids value, and the skills that they can show there and look at the difference too. Because we often say you're lazy, but it's because there you don't want to do the tasks we want them to do. But when it's something they want to do, they're not even remotely lazy, and they're capable. So looking at those differences too.

Holly (38:50.04)

Yeah, and I love that you said that because again, let's put motivation over here, the word lazy over here, because I can't even talk about it without crying. That just shows you how damaging that word is. But it's about the variables. It's about the context. It's about the time of day. It's about how you're asking. It's about what parts break down because sometimes when you think about it,

They may have a trouble starting, once they start, they can do pretty well. Or maybe instead of go clean your room, which would make me physically ill if somebody just told me to go do that, instead of being like, okay, I'm gonna help you for two minutes because they have time blindness. So again, it won't be forever. You won't die. I'm gonna set the time timer. I have them everywhere, the time timers. So you can see time pass because a lot of times our kids can't.

Literally can't. When they say I'll take forever, I can't do it. They literally believe that. So imagine having to shovel and somebody says, here's a shovel, keep digging. And you have no idea when it's going to end. That's exactly how it feels. So I would have a feeling about that too. So.

What is one thing, one part of a task that I can help you with you decide? I don't know what, let's put on a song, like, and then we'll do it together. And then we're only gonna put the Legos in the bin. That's it. That's all we're doing. When we bombard kids with all these steps and tasks and then yell at them, we're showing them that nothing they do is gonna work.

They're not gonna have any success. Anytime you tell them to do something, they're gonna feel instant shame. It's not doable. What you're asking me to do is not doable. And you're mad at me because it's not doable, but you're not seeing that part, right? So looking at it and what will make this doable for them? Sometimes it's showing the time. Sometimes it's asking them to do the second part. You start it. Task initiation is an executive function.

It's really hard. Why would you want to start something that feels impossible or that you're going to get yelled at for not doing it right? That's why I don't have a dresser.

Dr. Cam (41:30.751)

or that may feel like it's gonna... Right? I think the other thing that kids and older kids will tell me too is they don't wanna start because once they start, they've got what feels like hours and hours of pain in front of them. So I'm gonna keep delaying starting that painful journey as long as I can. Because once I start, it's gonna be forever.

Holly (41:53.932)

And that's the lovely thing, breaking it in tiny chunks and asking them what feels most doable to you. Because then you can step back and say, okay, this is actually seems to be a little more doable for them. And then you can also stretch that out. And in therapy, I'll say, okay, well, what's more doable for you? One or two minutes. One minute, all right, let's do it. What part of this do you want me to do?

That's great information because they're going to tell you the hardest part usually. That's good. I want to know what's harder because again, motivation, it's not about a character flaw. It's skill. Like you said, I don't want a haircut from somebody who, you know, just came off the street, never did one before. But also noted noting that knowing and doing are very two different, two different things. You know better.

Knowing and doing are not the same. Well, how do you do this? How do you take out the garbage? Will you do this, that? Well, then why don't you just do it? So we have to remember that those two things are different. We just have to see how do we fill in this gap? We can't expect our kids to jump a thousand feet. Also, capacity changes. Not every day and every moment is gonna be the same. You know how to take out the garbage. You did it before. Okay, well, my life was threatened in the hallway today.

and kids were vaping and I couldn't, you know, I mean, there's so much going on that you do not know. And remember, there's so much going on with you that you don't tell your kids. So if you're gonna assume anything, assume that they're already on the edge like you are, but how great to be able to say, what do I have, what it feels more doable right now? What part feels more doable to you? Because then you're listening, you become safe.

then you can see where the skills need to be built instead of just shaming.

Dr. Cam (43:53.13)

Yeah. I think all of this is so critical because a lot of parents will be like, well, isn't that coddling them by making it more fun or making it easier? And I think, how did you teach them all the other skills that they've learned? How did you teach that you taught them to walk? You've taught them to talk. You've you've taught them so many skills already. And when they're little, our instincts on how to teach are so strong. I mean, I watch

I love watching with my 11 month old grand niece how everyone, everybody changes their demeanor to kind of attune to the baby. And with teens, we do not remotely do that. We're like, why would we do that? They're still our kids. They still are learning. They're still have a ton of skills that they're trying to learn and teaching them in that same method is so effective.

And yet we start trying to teach by shame. We wouldn't teach a kid to walk through shame.

Holly (44:57.134)

feel like too, even if we took age out of it and just looked at the skill and capacity, because you'll hear, well, you're 15, you should know better, know, stuff like that. It's not really about age because at 50, I'm still learning. I don't know everything. I think people that are more wise understand that they don't know everything. And then, but when you're a teenager, you just should.

Dr. Cam (45:22.567)

Yeah, because they tell us they should. And I think that's

Holly (45:25.56)

Well, because they really sometimes think they do know.

Dr. Cam (45:28.113)

Well, and a lot of that and I think what's really interesting is like this teensplaining, you know how they have like mansplaining, it's like teensplaining, but that comes from the same insecurity as mansplaining where they feel like you're telling me I should, I need to feel competent right now. So I'm going to act competent, which is overcoming the sense of lack of confidence most of the time, right? Like I'm going to, I'm to, yeah, I'm going to pretend I know because not knowing feels so

Holly (45:50.318)

Right. They're pretending. Right.

Dr. Cam (45:57.386)

bad to me. And I think when we're allowed allowing our kids to feel confident to teach us stuff, which I do with my team, well, now my team knows stuff more than I do, because she watches tik tok and has all kinds of great information. No lie seriously has all the insights and that's so many tricks and all kinds of stuff. That builds confidence not it doesn't undermine her confidence in me. It builds her confidence in herself. And that is so huge.

Holly (46:22.776)

love that. Yes, it is huge. And I love that because it's like, how do you learn? Like I go on a platform I was on last night, actually, this platform, and I'll give you the link, it's called flown, and it's body doubling. So it's really good for ADHD people. And also breaking down tasks and changing tasks frequently. So

If something's gonna take a while, I'm like, well, how many, again, like how much can you do or which part? Again, that makes it more doable because if you don't do that, you're not gonna know where you need to build skills no matter how old you are. Also explaining, can you show me that? Can you show me and tell me? Which part do you want me to show you again? You know, that is the beauty in someone being able to understand themselves, their self-awareness and also,

for their self-advocacy. I would much rather help my kid and know that they're in a position later in a job that says, or they can say, you show me and tell me how to do that again, instead of I'm gonna act like I know, but I'm gonna be scared to death. I'm gonna get in trouble or screwed up.

Dr. Cam (47:36.596)

Yeah, that is, I think that is a very difficult thing for people to do now because we do have this in it. mean, you go to the fixed growth mindset and there's a lot of adults that still have the fixed mindset of if I don't know this now, then I don't know this. I can't, I'm bad at this. We have this belief, I'm bad at this instead of going, I would like to learn that to do that better. Cause you can.

Holly (47:53.902)

Great. I'm bad at math. I'm bad at cleaning my room.

Dr. Cam (48:05.577)

Right? And so it's about learning, not about knowing, not knowing. And I think that's

Holly (48:10.222)

think a nice way to start using that language is can you show me? It really helps when you show me. would do these with video games and the kids would be like, you're so ridiculous, mom. Obviously they're older now, but I'm like, can you show me how to do that part? I'm learning from you. You're better at this than me. You've done it more than me. So it's almost like you're creating this language that makes it okay to not know.

something and to be able to ask for help. Because a lot of times kids won't ask you and they won't ask you because they don't feel safe asking you because you're going to go, you should know you're making excuses, you know, all those kind of things. Because then we're, you know, as parents, we're just regulated and stressed.

Dr. Cam (48:58.997)

Well, and let's let's do one thing if we're dysregulated and we get dysregulated that is also a sign of a skill that we're still Developing and we can develop it but it shows that we still don't have that skill yet So expecting our teens to have it when they're already at a level of stress that they're getting us to I Want to use that as empathy the other thing when you said the video games because I always laugh like my nephew used to try to teach my sister and I

Holly (49:14.496)

Yeah!

Dr. Cam (49:28.415)

how to do gaming. And I think it is very telling if you ask them to teach you something and you're as bad as I am at the gaming, which I was, I kept bumping into a wall, like side jumping into a wall. Notice how they handle how you struggle. And it will tell you everything about how they perceive you handling it when they're struggling. If they are patient with you and say, okay, I see what you're doing, but try this, which beautifully my nephew did or do they get pissed at you and mad at you and start yelling at you mom don't do that mom mom what do you do that will give you brilliant insight into exactly how they're perceiving you helping them when they're struggling

Holly (50:12.206)

truth. Mic drop girl. Boom. There it is.

Dr. Cam (50:16.937)

Boom! Boom! Holly, how do people find you?

Holly (50:22.722)

Yes, please come on over to the Autism ADHD podcast. I will be there, will be on soon. And it is this beautiful, lovely place where parents and teachers and mental health therapists can come and get tons of great information. We talk about all the things, behavior, emotional regulation, academics, social interaction, all that goodness. I also do parent master classes where I'll answer your questions live. That's so fun, by the way. Also do continuing education for you mental health therapists out there. And my private practice is in Raleigh, North Carolina, cross-bind counseling, where we specialize in supporting ADHD, kids autistic, kids usually autistic and ADHD, because they come hand in hand a lot of the time.

And so again, mental therapy and then evaluations for them as well. So speaking, engagements, all the things. I got my hands in it.

Dr. Cam (51:32.307)

just want to add a personal note of this is Holly is, you are probably one of the kindest souls I have ever met and so empathetic and just you get it. You get the parent, you get the child, you get it all and you are just, if you get a chance to work with Holly, please do because you're lovely and you just, you're so wise with the loveliness and so.

Holly (51:55.758)

That is so kind. to actually hear that today. So thank you for saying that. I really desperately needed to hear it. And I think that just shows too, like an example of our kids desperately need to be supported, because it's not easy. It's not easy. So another thing is I gave you a link cam for 50 % off. I put a guide together, 135 school accommodations for autistic and ADHD.

Dr. Cam (52:03.497)

You're welcome.

Holly (52:25.806)

students and I've got all kinds of loveliness in there that's neuro affirming and then also three case studies. It's really, really good. And again, 50 % off for kids.

Dr. Cam (52:35.285)

I've seen it. It is very good. And it's all the information put into one package and everything from an expert that knows what, yeah, it's great. Definitely, definitely get that and I'll have the link in there for sure. Holly, thank you so much.

Holly (52:50.734)

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to hang with you as always and to hang out with your audience.